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Al’s Curiosity Corner #2 – Open Forum on the Library Issue

While there has been a discussion on that 'other' blog, the reason I hang here is that many comments get deleted there without explanation, especially on this issue and especially comments even modestly politically right.  However, this is a sensitive issue, and I am not going to allow outright insults directed at trans people/supporters/protestors nor at persons associated with Mom's for Liberty. 

For example, for some reason that other blog allows MFL persons to be called Nazis, and that sort of useless comment isn't going to be allowed here.  On the other hand, in the Yahoo comments on the Bee article, about 153 out of 155 comments were against the library actions, despite the article leaning towards supporting the protestors.  AND . . . many if not most of those commenting there were denying the existence of trans people, insulting trans people, and/or calling trans people various derogatory terms implying mental illness just for being trans.  I'm not putting up with any of that shit here either.  I won't outright delete a comment unless it's completely empty of anything but outright hate towards either side, and I'll always explain why a comment or part of a comment was deleted.

My views on the library matter are simple:  I'm a Jew who believes the Skokie decision was the greatest triumph for the core of what makes America great:  Free speech, baby!

What are your views?   I'd like this to focus on free speech vs. hate speech; the actions/authority of the library/library-manager, the actions of those putting on the meeting and those protesting the meeting, and various takes in the media.

(Note:  I have a life, so your comments may not be posted for many hours.  Deal with it.)

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Comments

64 responses to “Al’s Curiosity Corner #2 – Open Forum on the Library Issue”

  1. Ron O

    In the spirit of “free speech” (and in consideration of the fact that the “other” article drifted into this subject), I’m thinking that this comment section is a good place to discuss the song referenced in the other article, instead.
    🙂

    Reply
  2. South of Davis

    It is super hip today to be “trans” right now and the number of kids jumping on the “trans train” gets bigger every day since it is not really cool to be an overweight not particlarly looking girl, but once you “become” a “trans boy” everyone loves you (especially the teachers and the “cool kids” that don’t want to be called “anti-trans”) Just five years ago I didn’t know a single “trans” while today I know dozens (inlcuding most friend’s daughters that used to be “lesbians” before that was not cool enough). Like me most people don’t care if anyone is gay or trans but want the public school teachers (most who seem like they are working on commission as salespeople for “gender affirming care firms”) to back off trying to comvince every kid (especially the overweight not particlarly looking girls) that they are trans and don’t want their daughters to have to deal with naked guys (aka “trans women”) in locker rooms and have trans woman and girls kick their daughters asses in sports (like the “trans woman” power lifter that recently outlifted the second place “non trans woman” by over 450 pounds in Canada). Bill Maher probably hangs out with hipper people that me and seems to be seeing even more of this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=mMBzfUj5zsg

    Reply
  3. Alan C. Miller

    SUBJECT: “Student Opinion: Schools with These Rules Hurt Students”, in today’s VG. [A parallel issue so I’ll post this here – as I’m too lazy to start a third ‘corner’]
    First of all EG, you are a fantastic writer. 36-times the writer DG will ever be. OK, I used that to insult DG. But seriously, you are a fantastic writer.
    I had two real questions:
    • I don’t understand the purpose of the policy to not ask kids about their well-being. Is there some purported reason for this?
    • I’ve not understood the reporting-to-parents issue, not on the issue itself, but on a practical level. If someone starts using different pronouns at school, kids are going to talk, parents are going to hear, and very quickly it will get back to the parents very quickly in most cases. It’s not like everyone is going to keep a perfect cage where in school world everyone is going to use one pronoun for a person, and then everyone goes home, uses the other pronoun when the parents are around, and everyone keeps the secret perfectly until the person is 18. On a practical level, on what planet is that possible?
    • I would very much appreciate if you could take on SOD’s points above, as you’d do a better job than I could ever do in being a counter in this discussion.
    I also hope you will continue to write, and on a variety of issues. If I wasn’t banned permanently from the Davis Vanguard comment section for serial commenticide, I would have commented there. But if you happen to hear you name was mentioned here, welcome.

    Reply
  4. Roberta L. Millstein

    South of Davis, regardless what you think of trans people and the issues of the day, perhaps stop and think that we are talking about children and teenagers here. A very sensitive age where people are trying to figure out their identities, in more ways than one — also an age where suicide becomes all too likely. And what is your response? To talk about fat girls and ugly girls and how they are the ones who say that they are trans. Really, just look at what you wrote again. And you say that a number of your daughter’s friends are trans? Really, that’s how you parent, by judging the looks of your daughter’s friends? That’s just hurtful and nasty. Shame on you.

    Reply
  5. South of Davis

    I’m not “judging” anyone I’m just pointing out that I don’t know (or have even heard of) a smoking hot girl deciding to become a trans boy (or a good looking athletic guy that became a trans girl). I’m also not “judging” the teachers but I don’t think it is cool to push someone elses kid (especially a chunky minor kid with low self-esteem) go trans (just like I don’t think that it is my place to push anyone elses kid to change their diet, get in better shape and ride their bike more so they feel better, look better and and avoid a life with type 2 diabetes). P.S. If I was posting to the Vanguard under a real name I bet people would be already trying to get me fired like they did to Jeff that used to post to the Vanguard years ago and this lady:
    https://www.newsweek.com/california-mom-says-fired-objecting-gender-lessons-1820167
    Most of us did things to piss off our parents as kids I had long hair and used to cut school smoke pot and go surfing in Half Moon Bay and I had other friends join cults (two of them never made it home from Guyana) but today it seems like almost every public school teacher in Davis is even more excited to have a kid say they are trans than BYU professors are when they get a non-believer to become a Mormon…

    Reply
  6. Roberta L. Millstein

    So I see that you’ve doubled down on being nasty and hurtful. Trust me, nobody needs someone like you to act as their protector.

    Reply
  7. Roberta L. Millstein

    With an added dose of dubious and unsupported accusations against teachers.

    Reply
  8. Tuvia Kft.

    I am reluctant to claim agency here but, yes, four of my great-grandparents were murdered by the “real”, original Nazis and countless other relatives too, and the psychological trauma continues in my family. I’m not really saying that I have more or less of right to define what a Nazi is and is not… just providing context for my own feelings on the issue.
    A comment in the earlier article in the DV linked to the following: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2023/06/22/moms-for-liberty-quotes-hitler-newsletter/70347101007/
    Based on that it seems that MFL national has, at minimum, some confusion about Hitler. Calling someone or an action “Nazi” inappropriately is a long discussion, as I think it can be appropriate as an adjective in a certain situation, especially if well-explained at the time. Hitler (Hitlerism) still has huge power of people… and it’s free speech – after all – to call someone a Nazi. I would prefer, of course, that people start with e.g. “Nazi-like”, “drifting towards Nazism” etc. or come up with their own deep analysis.

    Since I truly believe in the importance of a… level playing field, following is the exact comment I made in today’s related article in the DV:
    Self-identification is primary and must be protected by law, with the exception of actions meant to defraud, etc.
    Gender, biology… what about the inherent problems of sports? In many societies only men could compete officially until last century, in societies more or less controlled by men, no voting by non-men etc. Hierarchy of men. How much of this continues to influence sport? Can team sports be built up to include a variety of talents so that the real everyone can participate together?
    I didn’t do particularly well in individual and team sports in elemenary through high school for a variety of reasons, some caused or enabled by the institution itself – this was the 70’s and 80’s… how much better is it nowadays, for all genders?
    I don’t follow the gender and sports issue closely, but my sense is that the inherent issues with sports are complicating the discussion. Beyond that, I don’t even understand why use gender titles any longer… the generally very helpful desired pronouns thing leaves out people who don’t self-classify as any particular gender (“none of the above” or “other” without explanation is a false choice…). Really, “citizen”, “friend”, “comrade” are all better, no? Of course, self-identification is primary… so that’s for the collective to decide if we’re best served by the common titles and new pronouns (and wow this gets super-complicated in other countries/languages… I want a global consensus, administered by the United Nations, with a 100-year process timeline!)

    Reply
  9. Colin Walsh

    SOD – Davisite doesn’t require commenters to reveal their identity but to post something so ugly under an alias is chickenshit.

    Reply
  10. South of Davis

    Roberta: I’m wondering if you really think teachers in Davis are not working with kids to transition without letting their parents know? I’m not going to name any names of teachers in town but if you Google teacher trans students and you will get 156 MILLION hits and you can spend the rest of the month reading about teachers working behind the backs of parents to “help” kids change their pronouns and “gender”.
    Colin: What is it that I said that you consider “ugly”?

    Reply
  11. Ron O

    Can team sports be built up to include a variety of talents so that the real everyone can participate together?
    No. It’s “bad enough” when I lose to another guy, let alone a girl, trans-girl, etc.
    🙂
    But seriously, there’s no way that most males (let alone females) can survive in (for example) the NFL. In regard to serious injury or death.
    Anyone want to fight Mike Tyson in his prime, or now?
    And for what it’s worth, I’m attracted to “fat chicks”. All chicks, for that matter – except for those with ducks. Of course, that’s not necessarily reciprocal in the first place, nor is it about “me”.
    But from what I understand (from other sources), the “trans issue” might actually be more about the struggles of young girls, then it is for some young boys.
    Honestly, your “soul” (if there is such a thing) has no sexual identity. Yeap, that’s what I believe.

    Reply
  12. Roberta L. Millstein

    SOD, what I think is that someone who has nothing better to do but to insult and belittle teenage girls is not a reputable source of information. What I think is that you said that teachers were pushing kids to go trans and I think there is zero evidence of that inflammatory accusation. I’ve seen none and you certainly have provided none.

    Reply
  13. Alan C. Miller

    RO: “Honestly, your “soul” (if there is such a thing) has no sexual identity.”
    Yes, but does your soul have a gender identity ? (serious question)

    Reply
  14. Ron O

    There’s no such thing as “gender” in the first place.
    But I’m glad that you didn’t focus on my comment about “fat chicks”.

    Reply
  15. keith

    I hope that the Moms For Liberty sue the Hell out of the library. Their free speech rights were trampled on and an example has to be made so this never happens again.

    Reply
  16. Keith

    “For example, for some reason that other blog allows MFL persons to be called Nazis”
    I tried to post on the Vanguard asking why this is allowed just to have my comment deleted. Then I emailed David asking the same thing, so far no response.
    One thing I’ve found on the Vanguard, pejoratives directed against something are more likely to get posted if the target is a conservative or a conservative group.

    Reply
  17. Ron O

    If the library (instead) chooses to deny all such events, it’s going to have an appearance of targeting Moms for Liberty – due to the librarian’s own words and actions.
    So if that’s the choice that’s made (rather than addressing the librarian’s apparent violation of the law), I also hope that legal action is taken against the library.

    Reply
  18. keith

    Here’s Armstrong and Getty’s take on the incident.
    https://www.armstrongandgetty.com/featured/armstrong-and-getty/content/2023-08-22-gender-bending-madness-chaos-at-the-davis-ca-library/

    Reply
  19. Alan C. Miller

    I have a third question for Eleanora Glick in addition to my questions from 10:42am. You posted on the DVG:
    Eleanora Glick August 22, 2023 at 9:21 am
    Moms for Liberty currently is refusing to take their videos down which involve my friend who is a minor. He asked them multiple times not to record him and he was ignored. The video is now on Fox News and has been viewed multiple times. This video was recorded without my friend’s consent and is now being viewed by everyone.
    I much agreed with the tone of the rest of your statement; you continue to be a reasoned voice on the issue. However, I question the validity of the request to take down the video of your friend who is a minor. My understanding is that filming and posting of public meetings is fully protected. I did a gig of google-sploring to see if there was an exception for minors and could find nothing. I don’t see how that could be practically enforced as a minor could end up in a public forum and end up with all video taken being illegal if they declare and refuse consent. This can be made to sound untoward, but I don’t think this has any legal backing. Am I incorrect in my conclusion?

    Reply
  20. Keith

    “While there has been a discussion on that ‘other’ blog, the reason I hang here is that many comments get deleted there without explanation, especially on this issue and especially comments even modestly politically right.”
    Well, I had comments deleted on the “other” blog yesterday. I don’t know why as there was no reason given. I don’t think my comments broke any rules so my only guess is they didn’t fit the ideals of whomever deleted them. What’s funny though they were deleted off of an article about freedom of speech and the abuse of that at the library. So much for freedom of speech on the Vanguard, they need to look inward.

    Reply
  21. Alan C. Miller

    KO: “So much for freedom of speech on the Vanguard, they need to look inward.”
    And plantward 😐

    Reply
  22. Alan C. Miller

    Maybe the Vanguard’s current moderator should apply for a job as a librarian 😉

    Reply
  23. Ron O

    Maybe the Vanguard’s current moderator should apply for a job as a librarian 😉
    Wow – that’s a perfect comment – and seems so obvious when you think about it.

    Reply
  24. Alan C. Miller

    I am very proud of that comment. It is indeed perfect.
    My ego increased in size 7%

    Reply
  25. Keith

    The Vanguard comment rules are so subjective, one never knows from post to post what is allowed and what rules will be enforced.
    Keith August 26, 2023 at 9:44 am
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    “This {edited} group probably holds hundreds of such inflammatory events nationwide annually.”
    Oh, so now calling the M4L women “fascists” is not allowed. Are you going to go back and edit all the other times they’ve been called that and worse on this blog?

    Reply
  26. Keith

    I had these two comments deleted on the Vanguard. I emailed David and asked why but as often the case I don’t feel his explanation was adequate to justify why my comments weren’t posted.
    Keith August 29, 2023 at 6:02 pm
    Ron O wrote:
    “Could be. Could also be a false flag.”
    My reply: Exactly Ron. No reason to jump to conclusions. It could be right wing M4L sympathizers calling or sending in the threats or it could be left wing activists seeing it as an opportunity to stop future M4L meetings. All we know is we don’t know.
    Keith August 29, 2023 at 6:06 pm
    David G wrote:
    “It was funny I was just reading about the Birmingham Church Bombing and some suggested at the time that the Civil Rights Movement blew up their own church”
    My reply: It was funny hearing about Jussie Smollett’s accusations that while going out in a Chicago blizzard at 2am to get a Subway sandwich he was attacked by two guys wearing Trump hats who threw bleach at him and put a noose around his neck.
    (Spoiler alert: that was false). Goes to show you, these accusations are not new.

    Reply
  27. Ron O

    From today’s Vanguard article:
    Someone posted a comment: “The library itself has some responsibility for the threats being made.”
    David’s response: “No they don’t.”
    https://www.davisvanguard.org/2023/09/my-view-a-line-was-crossed/
    It appears that David is quoting me, before I quit the Vanguard.
    The fact that the library’s regional manager threatened to shut down the Mom’s for Liberty’s presentation via references to policy and law which do not exist appears to be a primary motivator (one way or another) regarding the subsequent threat to the library.
    This isn’t just a regular “citizen” spouting nonsense. It’s a government employee shutting down free speech, citing policy and law which doesn’t exist. (And if it did actually exist, would violate the U.S. Constitution.)
    Given what this employee said/did, it’s not surprising that there’d be a negative reaction toward the library itself.
    (It’s not clear if he actually shut down the meeting for “misgendering”, however.)
    No one is stating, however, that this justifies making illegal threats. Which again could conceivably be intended to create hatred toward Moms for Liberty itself.
    The library needs to apologize, and ensure that their regional manager understands their own policy and the law.
    And yet, folks like David are focusing on some “wingnut” who will probably never be found, and which can’t be controlled. Rather than the instigator of the problem.

    Reply
  28. Alan C. Miller

    Focusing on the bomb threat misses the entire point and is an attempt to derail the issue. The bomb threat is the result of probably a single criminal or mentally unwell mind. The library issue itself goes to the basics of our country’s principals.

    Reply
  29. Ron O

    Partial quote from Beth Borne, in the Vanguard:
    “As you know, I believe this is the biggest social and medical scandal of our times.”
    It’s the “medical” part that (should) cause concern. But the “social” issue could contribute to that.
    This is not a “Davis-only” issue – it’s a potential “funding incentive” issue. I’m inclined to think that “scandal” is an appropriate term.
    Nor is this a “conservative” or “progressive” issue – despite how it’s presented.
    I don’t know how large of an issue this is.
    https://www.davisvanguard.org/2023/09/my-view-a-line-was-crossed/

    Reply
  30. Ron O

    Wow. The attacks and misinformation regarding the incident at the library just continue on-and-on.
    Keep in mind that this is Gloria Partida’s organization, doing so. It’s really unfortunate that these extremists present the issues in this manner.
    It’s truly become a “take no prisoner’s” environment, in which you’re either “for us, or against us”.
    https://www.davisvanguard.org/2023/09/davis-phoenix-coalition-condemns-anti-lgbtq-threats-in-davis/

    Reply
  31. Keith

    “Wow. The attacks and misinformation regarding the incident at the library just continue on-and-on.”
    Yes Ron, that’s how I see it too. So many false narratives being put forward by the people who proclaim that you have to feel and speak like they demand or else. Sorry, but you don’t control people’s opinions and free speech.

    Reply
  32. Ron O

    From article above:
    “We condemn the escalating extremist rhetoric that contributes to these threats.”
    Is this intended to be ironic? If so, it’s definitely a success.
    Folks, don’t get suckered into this. The issue is not black-and-white, nor is it progressive vs. conservative.
    But the most serious issue is the medical interventions, funded by Obamacare.
    There’s video of a hospital representative in another state discussing the amount of money that can be made via “gender-affirming health care”. And another video “suggesting” that any staff who have an issue with that could face “consequences”.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmeDYLgs3kI
    https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/us/vanderbilt-suspends-gender-affirming-surgery-minors/index.html
    Again, these type of medical procedures were apparently being performed on minors.
    Note the reference to Vanderbuilt’s “Pediatric Transgender Clinic”.

    Reply
  33. Keith

    “n what’s been called a landmark victory for parental rights, a California school district has settled for $100,000 with a mother who said her daughter was “socially transitioned” to a boy without parental knowledge or consent.
    Jessica Konen said her 11-year-old daughter, Alicia, was told by her school in the Spreckels Union School District in Monterey County that she may be upset because she didn’t know who she “truly was inside.”
    From there, the school allowed her to use the boy’s bathroom, used male pronouns to refer to her and was “socially transitioned” away from her biological gender.
    Once Konen found out that her daughter was being identified as a male and socially transitioning without her knowledge, she sued the district.”
    https://nypost.com/2023/08/29/california-school-district-settles-with-mom-for-100k-after-school-transitioned-daughter-without-her-consent/

    Reply
  34. Matt Williams

    On this subject, I think Freddy Oakley said it best in her response to Bob Dunning, which The Enterprise published Friday.
    Dear Bob,
    I get it that if Raphael Nadal transitions to female, women’s tennis has a very big problem. But a lot has happened in First Amendment scholarship and adjudication since you walked the corridors of King Hall. I don’t know any more about it than a nice wife who listens to a dear husband go at it with other legal philosophers over dessert and coffee, but even I know we are way, way past “Falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater.”
    The Southern Poverty Law Center classes Moms for Liberty with other hate groups. The SPLC position paper is at https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moms-liberty. Please read it. So, if the KKK falsely attests that they will follow the rules for use of the Stephens Room and then sheets-up and speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks, I hope that you will be better prepared to address the issue.
    It’s complicated; I understand that, Bob. That’s why I am so disappointed in your recent column.
    Freddie Oakley

    Reply
  35. Keith

    “The Southern Poverty Law Center classes Moms for Liberty with other hate groups”
    So what, the SPLC is a left leaning organization. So this doesn’t surprise anyone.
    “So, if the KKK falsely attests that they will follow the rules for use of the Stephens Room and then sheets-up and speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks, I hope that you will be better prepared to address the issue.”
    This is what’s known as a false comparison. No way what the M4L did at their meeting comes anywhere close to this type of analogy. If using this logic nobody should ever be allowed to have a meeting at the library because they might say something that someone deems to be hateful if it doesn’t fit with their ideology.

    Reply
  36. Alan C. Miller

    What are you talking about, Matt? You could post your own thoughts . . . But since you posted someone else’s thoughts, I’ll dissect them as your own:
    FO via MW: “I don’t know any more about it than a nice wife who listens to a dear husband go at it with other legal philosophers over dessert and coffee,”
    That’s your lead in to impress us ? That you admit don’t have credentials according to your own beliefs ?
    “but even I know we are way, way past “Falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater.”
    ‘even i know’ ? That’s supposed to impress us? Stating that we are “way way past . . . ” something isn’t an argument, it’s not even descriptive. It leaves the reader to fill in the argument that FO didn’t make with whatever the reader believes FO meant.
    “The Southern Poverty Law Center classes Moms for Liberty with other hate groups.”
    I’m not a supporter of M4L (yet, letters like this and the actions of the Librarian and others are leading me, first to learn that they exist, and second to learn more about their message, specifically because there is such a movement for their message not to be heard by me or anyone else). However, I have come know that the Southern Poverty Law Center is not the group that I knew during the civil rights movement, and neither is the ACLU the group that sued Skokie. I recently read a page written by the ACLU on a position, and it literally lacked logic — it was just rhetoric. I can’t imagine today’s ACLU would have sued Skokie. I don’t have much use for labels declared by formerly respectable non-profits.
    ” if the KKK falsely attests that they will follow the rules for use of the Stephens Room and then sheets-up and speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks, I hope that you will be better prepared to address the issue.”
    That’s not remotely what happened. Nobody “sheeted up”, an oft-used tactic of those with ANTIFA ideology, just a different colored sheet. M4L invited at both their meetings to have protestors come in and have a discussion with them in a Q&A session, and they stand by their beliefs, show their faces, and give their names.
    And yes, if there was a KKK in Davis, or a National Socialist Party, I would support their right to speak and be heard, and I would support the right for others to protest.
    “It’s complicated; I understand that, Bob.”
    It’s pretty simple.
    “That’s why I am so disappointed in your recent column.”
    I agree with Bob Dunning’s column 100%
    What do you think, Matt? In your own words

    Reply
  37. Keith

    It looks like the Vanguard is refusing to post my comments today for some reason so I’m going to post them here:
    Keith September 3, 2023 at 12:47 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    “Some of these supporters experienced threatening comments made to them
    personally. In this atmosphere, the library staff shut the meeting down.”
    Can you please share what these threatening comments made to them personally were. I’ve watched the video of the event and I didn’t hear anything close to a threatening comment unless of course you’re referring to calling trans women by their birth gender as threatening, which wasn’t directed at any individual. It’s possible I missed it so please explain.
    https://www.davisvanguard.org/2023/09/davis-phoenix-coalition-condemns-anti-lgbtq-threats-in-davis/
    This comment was in reply to Don Shor:
    Don Shor September 3, 2023 at 8:07 am
    The best advice I’ve been given on this subject is that when extremist organizations are seeking to use social media to amplify their message, it is most effective and safest for the community to simply not engage with them.
    Keith September 3, 2023 at 8:24 am
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    I can agree with Don here but not in the case of the Moms For Liberty because it’s not an extremist organization.
    https://www.davisvanguard.org/2023/09/my-view-a-line-was-crossed/#comment-476152

    Reply
  38. Mary Sue Retton

    Here is what I think:
    * The librarian acted imprudently. By interjecting and acting in the way that he did, he inadvertently ensured this would go viral. (How he could not have foreseen this, I don’t know).
    * The librarian probably invoked a law that does not exist or improperly invoked a law that does not exist, i.e., there was no grounds for shutting down the event for use of language.
    * The library had the opportunity to fix its policy in such a way that that the language in question would not have been allowed. They failed to do so.
    * Beth Bourne had already organized several events like this at the library. So the only reason to do it again was to get more attention, not to educate.
    * By bringing Moms for Liberty into Davis, Beth Bourne brought groups credibly accused of terrorism, or at least threats of terrorism, into Davis. You lie down with dogs, you are going to get fleas. (Or, if you prefer, you lie down with the devil, you will go to hell).
    * At this time no one knows who sent the bomb threats, but regardless, they have to be taken seriously. They literally terrorize those who are at risk from them, and that is itself a harm.
    * Although freedom of speech is important, the safety of library patrons, students and staff at nearby schools, and people in nearby dwellings is at least as important. Their mental and physical health is a serious issue.
    In summary: There is a lot of blame to go around and a lot of people telling one side of the story but not the other.

    Reply
  39. Alan C. Miller

    MSR say: “* Beth Bourne had already organized several events like this at the library. So the only reason to do it again was to get more attention, not to educate.”
    What do you mean? A group can’t have more than one meeting? A group can’t seek to get attention? The two meetings I am aware of had different guests and different topics. Nobody was ‘doing it again’.
    “* By bringing Moms for Liberty into Davis, Beth Bourne brought groups credibly accused of terrorism, or at least threats of terrorism, into Davis. You lie down with dogs, you are going to get fleas. (Or, if you prefer, you lie down with the devil, you will go to hell).”
    I am not sure what you are referring to regarding threats of terrorism. Could you elaborate?
    “* At this time no one knows who sent the bomb threats, but regardless, they have to be taken seriously. They literally terrorize those who are at risk from them, and that is itself a harm.”
    I agree.
    “* Although freedom of speech is important, the safety of library patrons, students and staff at nearby schools, and people in nearby dwellings is at least as important. Their mental and physical health is a serious issue.”
    That is on the person who called in the bomb threat.
    If a group aligned closer to those that protested the library event were themselves hosting the event, and a bomb threat was called in the next day, would that be the fault of those that put on the event?

    Reply
  40. Ron O

    “The library had the opportunity to fix its policy in such a way that that the language in question would not have been allowed. They failed to do so.”
    I don’t believe that the First Amendment allows such an opportunity.

    Reply
  41. Matt Williams

    Alan, okay I will bite at your fishing lure.
    1) I have no problem with Freddy Oakley honestly and forthrightly explaining her creds. Are you opposed to honesty and forthrightness? You appear to be going down the ad hominem road, when you focus more on the messenger than on the message.
    2) Regarding “speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks” do you not consider “calling a trans gender woman a man” hate speech?
    3) Freddy’s use of the rhetorical device of metaphor to demonstrate parallelism seems to have eluded you.
    4) you wanted me to provide you with my own thoughts … here you go:
    Dear Alan,
    I get it that if Raphael Nadal transitions to female, women’s tennis has a very big problem. But a lot has happened in First Amendment scholarship and adjudication since Bob Dunning walked the corridors of King Hall. I don’t know any more about it than a 75 year old who occasionally listens to legal philosophers, but even I know we are way, way past “Falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater.”
    The Southern Poverty Law Center in its own published opinion, classes Moms for Liberty with other hate groups. The SPLC position paper is at https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moms-liberty. Please read it.
    To draw a hypothetical parallel, if the KKK attests that they will follow the rules for use of the Stephens Room and then sheets-up and speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks, I hope that you will be better prepared to address the issue. Refusing to address trans gender women as trans gender women, but rather as men is hate speech. It only differs from the KKK hate speech in its details. As Winston Churchill once said, “She: What kind of woman do you think I am?
    He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.”
    It’s complicated; I understand that, Alan. That’s why I am so disappointed in your ad hominem comment above.

    Reply
  42. Ron O

    “To draw a hypothetical parallel, if the KKK attests that they will follow the rules for use of the Stephens Room and then sheets-up and speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks, I hope that you will be better prepared to address the issue. Refusing to address trans gender women as trans gender women, but rather as men is hate speech. It only differs from the KKK hate speech in its details.”
    Glad to see Matt commenting on the Davisite, but I have some questions in regard to his comment.
    What rules govern the use of the Stephens Room? Can they ban “hate speech”? If so, who gets to decide what that consists of – and how does that interact with the First Amendment?
    Do you believe a court would uphold a rule which states that the library can ban the use of the word “man” to describe a transgender woman? And if not, who would be “in the wrong” for creating or attempting to enforce such a rule?

    Reply
  43. Ron O

    “Effectively, the Supreme Court unanimously reaffirmed that there is no ‘hate speech’ exception to the First Amendment.[14]”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_in_the_United_States#:~:text=While%20%22hate%20speech%22%20is%20not,on%20the%20issue%2C%20Matal%20v.
    I have no idea why so many seem to think otherwise. How is it that “I” know this, but apparently – a regional librarian does not?
    And when is the library going to apologize, and ensure this doesn’t happen again?

    Reply
  44. Mitted Ragdoll

    Sadly, the Southern Poverty Law Center is not a credible source. To quote the leftist journalst Nathan Robinson (Current Affairs), their “hate group” list is an “outright fraud” and a “willful deception designed to scare older liberals into writing checks to the SPLC.” Much the same has been reported in the NYT, NPR and elsewhere.
    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/the-southern-poverty-law-center-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-liberalism

    Reply
  45. Alan C. Miller

    MW say: “Alan, okay I will bite at your fishing lure.”
    It’s an exploding harpoon, but who’s counting?
    “1) I have no problem with Freddy Oakley honestly and forthrightly explaining her creds. Are you opposed to honesty and forthrightness?”
    No. I am not opposed to pointing out the obvious either.
    “You appear to be going down the ad hominem road, when you focus more on the messenger than on the message.”
    I would not have ever responded to this letter, except you copied the words as expressing your own views. The issue I have is with the “a lot has happened wording”, and I already explained why.
    2) Regarding “speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks” do you not consider “calling a trans gender woman a man” hate speech?
    I’m not stepping in your trap. The issue I am speaking of is free speech, i.e. what is considered to be hate speech by one group can lawfully be expressed by another, however vile it is perceived by another. And the “another” also may protest and explain their reason to oppose the first group. Those groups who wish to argue about what “is” hate speech can argue about it until long past my time upon this Earth. They will never agree.
    3) Freddy’s use of the rhetorical device of metaphor to demonstrate parallelism seems to have eluded you.
    I don’t know, but whatever you just said, “rhetorical device of metaphor to demonstrate parallelism” certainly eluded me.
    4) you wanted me to provide you with my own thoughts … here you go:
    Dear Alan,
    I get it that if Raphael Nadal transitions to female, women’s tennis has a very big problem. But a lot has happened in First Amendment scholarship and adjudication since Bob Dunning walked the corridors of King Hall. I don’t know any more about it than a 75 year old who occasionally listens to legal philosophers, but even I know we are way, way past “Falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater.”
    The Southern Poverty Law Center in its own published opinion, classes Moms for Liberty with other hate groups. The SPLC position paper is at https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moms-liberty. Please read it.
    To draw a hypothetical parallel, if the KKK attests that they will follow the rules for use of the Stephens Room and then sheets-up and speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks, I hope that you will be better prepared to address the issue. Refusing to address trans gender women as trans gender women, but rather as men is hate speech. It only differs from the KKK hate speech in its details. As Winston Churchill once said, “She: What kind of woman do you think I am?
    He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.”
    It’s complicated; I understand that, Alan. That’s why I am so disappointed in your ad hominem comment above.
    I see what you did there. You copied the other persons words that I already responded to and changed a handful of words and added something about a 75 year old, although I’m not sure if that is you, Freddie or Donald Trump. Anyway I already responded to the almost identical words, so nothing more to add. Thanks for taking five minutes of everyone’s time who read this, that they will never get back.

    Reply
  46. Alan C. Miller

    MW say in the DV: ‘ I believe your message would have more traction if it logically answers the first question that anyone goes to when they are asked to engage. Specifically, “Why should I personally care about this issue?” ‘
    Because it is tearing the country apart more than any issue since abortion. I see no logic in your contention that few or no people involved in Davis makes it something people do not need to care about. Clearly people care about it. I think what you are really saying is “Beth you should shut up because I disagree with you and you are wrong, and here is my illogical argument as to why”. As I have said, I’m not a fan of BB, but I am against people getting railroaded for their views. Criticized? Yes! Go right ahead and protest and criticize. But shut down speech? Hell no!

    Reply
  47. Roberta L. Millstein

    ACM, your comparison of the abortion issue to issues surrounding people who are transgender is apt. Both are social issues that are currently being exploited by Republican politicians, using emotional pleas and exaggerated claims, in order to garner votes. Meanwhile, the issues that most Americans on both “sides of the aisle” really care about go unaddressed (e.g., food on the table, health care, roof over one’s head). If anyone doubts this, look at the amount of legislation concerning people who are transgender that has been proposed in the last couple of years… right around the time that many people (again on both sides of the aisle) are unhappy with recent decisions concerning abortion.
    We are being manipulated, folks.

    Reply
  48. Alan C. Miller

    RM say: “Both are social issues that are currently being exploited by Republican politicians, using emotional pleas and exaggerated claims, in order to garner votes.”
    Damn straight. I would have taken out the word “Republicans” and substituted nothing in its place. I quit political parties 40 years ago.
    “We are being manipulated, folks.”
    Damn straight.

    Reply
  49. Roberta L. Millstein

    Sure, both parties try to do this. It’s just that the Democrats typically stink at it, while the Republicans excel at it.
    I’ve been a registered Democrat most of my life, with short periods as no-party (or whatever you call it) and short periods registered as Green. Mainly I register/de-register so I can vote in certain elections. My views are closer to Bernie’s than anyone else’s, in case anyone cares. Which they probably don’t — or in case it wasn’t already obvious — which it probably is.

    Reply
  50. Ron O

    There’s ultimately some “real” issues behind this, other than free speech.
    Don’t know to what degree.
    For sure, it’s generally not good to mess-around with puberty blockers, hormones, surgeries, etc. – based upon a “belief” that you were born in the wrong body.
    It’s also highly questionable when hospitals start looking at this as a “cash cow” (see video I posted earlier).
    Your body is not really subject to “beliefs”. It just “is”. Gender is a construct.
    Something’s wrong when a Supreme Court justice can’t tell you what a woman is. (Or, I presume – a man.) Though it’s really a two-part question:
    1. The legal aspect (which is something that a Supreme Court justice might ultimately have to address).
    2. The biological aspect. (Again, a Supreme Court justice essentially said that “I’m not a biologist”, so wouldn’t be able to tell you. Really?) And doctors now “assign” a sex at birth, rather than “observe” it?
    There’s a perception that schools are encouraging this, behind parents’ back. This appears to be at least partly based upon reality.
    Some parents are afraid of sending their kids to school. Or more accurately, they’re angry at the school system.
    There’s likely more fear for parents of girls (regarding boys who start identifying as girls).
    I agree that political manipulation is occurring, but it’s based upon some real issues. Republicans didn’t “invent” those issues – they’re responding to them.
    Unfortunately, those fears and anger are ridiculed, as part of the political manipulation.
    This issue generates extreme responses, for some.

    Reply

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