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5th & J Streets – Emergency Situation

5th&J Image

Open Letter to Davis City Council

Davis City Council,

Another collision at 5th & J Street today.  Car vs. Bike.

Right after I called for Jersey barriers again at Council last night after the last collision. 

This is an emergency situation.  Two collisions just this week, four in one week several weeks back.  Put up the goddamned Jersey barriers already, like today, like tomorrow.  Recognize that people are getting hurt at an alarming rate here.  I made a mistake being OK that the changes are coming after calling for Jersey barriers immediately after the four accidents a few weeks back. We can't wait.

Here's how to do it:  put Jersey barriers on the left of each directional lane leading up to the intersection, and along the left-turn lane.  The left-turn lanes will face each other, so block the west to south lane, and allow east to north.  Put a 4' gap on each side for peds & bikes at crosswalks.  Do this also at I Street and K Street.  Similar site problems, and drivers will just cut over to I or K if J is blocked.  At I and K Street reverse which left turn lane is blocked, so cars can only go west to south.  This allows people to get into the neighborhood from 5th either direction, but prevents a 'face-off' between cars in the two left-turn lanes.  Then slap a vertical yellow reflector on the east and west ends of the Jersey barriers to prevent cars from hitting them.

This has been going on for years, but the rate of collisions has increased greatly recently.  I live near the corner of 3rd & J Streets.  3rd is a bit less busy but still an arterial.  I can't recall ever seeing a collision there.  In over 35 years.  I'm sure it's happened, but it's rare.  So it isn't just bad drivers, it's the intersection.

People keep asking why.  5th & J has inherent site problems.  These can't be fixed with shrub trimming – there are poles and trees in just the wrong places.  Going south to cross, you have to stop back of the stop line, then pull forward up to the bike lane, stop, and then pull across.  It's the only safe way to do it, but most people who don't use it regularly don't know this, nor is stopping twice a normal way to cross a street.  You get someone who pulls forward from the stop line with their site line blocked in just the wrong places, combined with a speeding car on 5th, and BOOM.  And it happens often.

Do it!  Fix it!  Today!  Now!  No later than tomorrow!

Alan C. Miller

Old East Davis

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Comments

34 responses to “5th & J Streets – Emergency Situation”

  1. Don Shor

    I agree with Alan Miller that this is an emergency situation and needs to be addressed by the council immediately.

    Reply
  2. Colin walsh

    Yes!!!
    This intersection is very dangerous! My daughter was in an accident here a month ago. The car was totaled but thankfully she is OK. One of the corner residents came out and informed us it was the 8th accident already this year.

    Reply
  3. Darelldd

    Thanks, Alan.
    And…I just can’t help myself with a correction: These collisions are not accidents. These are foreseeable, with a known cause and some obvious remedies.
    “Accident” is inappropriate for something predictable. Accident achieves one thing in this case: Gives a pass to poor design. “Oops, I didn’t mean to” just doesn’t cut it here. Or really anywhere.
    – Darell

    Reply
  4. Tuvia etc

    It’s a horror!
    At least you mention “speeding”, if not specifically in relation to this incident.
    Thank you.
    Bizarrely – but not surprisingly – the 100%-related staff report for this Monday ‘s Transportation Commission meeting mentions “speed” precisely zero times. (See link below.)
    It’s clear to me – and likely many traffic engineers from countries and cities far safer than Davis – that physical measures on 5th Street that slow speeds to 20 mph will eliminate a lot of the repeated traffic violence happening in this corridor.
    I’m impressed with the efforts of Old East Davis to take action and do real work on the street to improve the situation here, but by absurdly disregarding the obvious elephant in the room in the agenda for this Monday, I think that the City is playing you… and us!
    Additionally, I’m not impressed with the City’s outreach for this situation: The huge problem on this arterial Corridor is being treated like it’s a local street, needing some kind of inexpensive traffic calming measure. There was only direct outreach to people in the immediate neighborhoods.
    There’s a range of holistic measures which could also benefit the corridor, and some of them make money: police don’t record destinations of travelers during incident reports, but I’m curious how much throughput on 5th is driven by free parking Downtown.
    One ask: It would be helpful if you could include some diagrams of your suggested solutions.
    With respect.
    https://documents.cityofdavis.org/Media/Default/Documents/PDF/CityCouncil/Transportation-Commission/Agendas/2025/2025-04-21 TC/4A- Fifth Street Improvements at I,J,K Streets – SR.pdf

    Reply
  5. Jay

    Alan, I can’t tell exactly what you are proposing without a sketch, but I would have concerns with it if I was on city council.
    Jersey barriers would make these intersections feel a lot “busier” to drivers thereby complicating their decision making; alternating which intersections left turns are allowed will add confusion; 32” tall concrete barriers are themselves an obstacle to look over especially from low-slung cars; Reflectors won’t stop people from driving into the ends of these immovable objects, especially if they are placed right next to a lane edge.
    You might as well bite the bullet and propose a continuous raised median, created by a 6” tall curb, between the train tracks and L Street…it would only add one intersection (Rowe Place) to your proposal and would be much less dangerous and confusing. This would force all crossing movements and left turns along this stretch of 5th Street to the signalized intersections at G and L Streets and be a much safer alternative in my opinion.

    Reply
  6. Alan C. Miller

    TE say: “physical measures on 5th Street that slow speeds to 20 mph will eliminate a lot of the repeated traffic violence happening in this corridor.”
    When 5th Street was reduced from 4-lanes to two lanes with left-turn lanes and bike lanes, my friend on the corner and I watched for the first few days and traffic was peaceful, traveling through the new paint at 20-25 mph. Also, without the near-curb lane, site-lines were improved and for awhile it seemed the collision issues had diminished.
    Then people got used to design, and some people seemed to have figured out that if they gunned it from G Street to L Street or vice-versa, they could just make the green cycle (so I’ve heard). Speed became an issue again, and recently collisions have become the norm. Someone said there were eight collisions this year. Terrible, and I’d imagine there have been more, as adjacent neighbors have reported that police don’t always come so some collisions are not officially recorded.
    The City has been working on this, at the normal speed-of-City, and the neighborhood appreciates that. But these collisions, often T-bones and with some car flips, need to stop today (or at the latest tomorrow). A death is almost certain.
    My friend at the corner said a woman blew the stop sign on a scooter a year or so back and was t-boned by a car and landed on her head next to his house and was in the street screaming – he said her scream was so terrifying it haunted him for days. We don’t know what happened to her (I tried to find out) but that easily could have been a death.

    Reply
  7. Alan C. Miller

    J, I hope to commission a sketch.
    J say: “Jersey barriers would make these intersections feel a lot “busier” to drivers thereby complicating their decision making”
    Maybe, I don’t see it. What I do know is that I know this intersection well, having crossed many hundreds of times, and it’s among the most complex and dangerous intersections I know. I never take it for granted.
    J say: “alternating which intersections left turns are allowed will add confusion”
    Any change adds confusion for awhile. My proposal is temporary, maybe with 20mph signs erected while in place, until the design the City is working on is in place.
    J say: “32” tall concrete barriers are themselves an obstacle to look over especially from low-slung cars;
    I’m open to better ideas, possibly in a response from the City traffic dept. The point is the NOW part.
    Jay say: “Reflectors won’t stop people from driving into the ends of these immovable objects, especially if they are placed right next to a lane edge.”
    I drive by reflectors placed on the ends of Jersey barriers adjacent to the fast lane at full highway speed in all the construction on Hwy. 80. I’m not saying that’s ideal, but someone in a one-car accident that is completely their fault at city-street speeds is better than someone getting t-boned.
    J say: “You might as well bite the bullet and propose a continuous raised median, created by a 6” tall curb, between the train tracks and L Street…”
    If a 6″ barrier is as immediately available as Jersey barriers, that may be a good temporary solution – City traffic would make that decision. I believe a design is doable that would allow for alternating-direction left turns. Left turns have not been the cause of these collisions, because the driver can clearly see the oncoming traffic.
    J say: “This would force all crossing movements and left turns along this stretch of 5th Street to the signalized intersections at G and L Streets and be a much safer alternative in my opinion.”
    My concern here would be adding trips down G and L streets and thus adding traffic to those streets and others for people to return. It’s even more an issue for those wanting to go north, as they’d have to go up to 8th and come back south – a long detour.

    Reply
  8. Tuvia etc

    Alan: 15, then: given the mass differential of the average vehicle here compared to one in the safest parts of the EU, it’s essentially the same speed DESIGN as what’s working there, and has been for some time, and generally getting better
    Design means physical constraints on the lanes, not just paint, not just wishes. 5th west of here Is paint only, with marginal bike lanes and actually a lot of resurfacing never happened.
    The staff report for the Transportation Commission meeting this Monday mentions a bunch of other solutions, all of which seem to have been discarded.
    If we disregard speed design again, we just open the door for more beg button design, and it’s insufficiencies. I’m not against emergency measures; I’m against a redacted pallete, especially prior to community discussion.
    At the end of the day – today, not necessarily tomorrow – the City Council and staff is simply scared of impeding private motor vehicles. We’re talking about fear in other violent contexts right now, aren’t we?

    Reply
  9. Alan C. Miller

    TE say: “We’re talking about fear in other violent contexts right now, aren’t we?”
    I have no idea what that means.
    TE say: “the City Council and staff is simply scared of impeding private motor vehicles.”
    The whole country is. I’d like to focus on 5th & J for now. People are getting injured and someone might get killed.

    Reply
  10. Jay

    ACM: “I hope to commission a sketch.” That will help the discussion.
    ACM: “…Speed became an issue again, and recently collisions have become the norm.” And 20 mph signs will be ignored unless there is constant enforcement.
    ACM: “…someone in a one-car accident that is completely their fault at city-street speeds is better than someone getting t-boned.” Harsh. That is more likely to be a fatal mistake than even a T-Bone collision. Plus, what about those two car collisions where an innocent driver is the one who hits the end because they are trying to avoid someone coming at them from the side street?
    ACM: “If a 6″ barrier is as immediately available as Jersey barriers, that may be a good temporary solution.” I googled it and there are rubber curb options listed for temporary or permanent use on roadways. Probably easier and cheaper to install than a concrete barrier.
    ACM: “Left turns have not been the cause of these collisions, because the driver can clearly see the oncoming traffic.” The purpose of this proposal is to stop the crossing movements that lead to T-Bone collisions. The only ways I can think of to do that is to block off the median or put in a roundabout, but I doubt there is enough space for that.
    ACM: “My concern here would be adding trips down G and L streets and thus adding traffic to those streets and others for people to return. It’s even more an issue for those wanting to go north, as they’d have to go up to 8th and come back south – a long detour.” We might have to sacrifice convenience for safety. Inconvenience is a lot easier to accept in an emergency situation.

    Reply
  11. South of Davis

    ACM wrote:

    Another collision at 5th & J Street today. Car vs. Bike.
    As I recently posted at 8th & J I saw a Target Shopping Cart hit a Car, then another one ram a kid on a bike (the crazy lady had “two” Target carts).
    Right after I called for Jersey barriers again at Council last
    night after the last collision.
    The Jersry barriers will reduce “car to car” accidents but increase “car hitting jersey barrier” accidents (the head ons into cement at speed from UCD girls texting and drifting to right or left will be ugly).
    P.S, Not to pick on UCD girls but “most” of the time I pass someeone that appears to be female (I don’t want to misgender anyone) “and” appears to be a UCD student (they could be DHS students or Sac State Students or just work at Starbucks) they are holding a phone…

    Reply
  12. Cathy Forkas

    I agree this situation should be addressed immediately. The neighborhood has been in talks with the City for over a year including conducting traffic surveys for the City to move things along. Our liaison with the City is excellent, but the snail’s pace of getting this done is going to kill someone!
    Cathy Forkas

    Reply
  13. Alan C. Miller

    I wish to take this moment to concur with CF – the City is working on a design, and our interaction with the City on moving that forward has been productive and moving at the normal, if not slightly accelerated, speed.
    I’m not trying to speed that process up or slow that process down – it is what it is. What I am asking is to immediately stop the ability to cross 5th Street because the intersection in inherently dangerous and the accident rate ridiculous. With each day the potential for more collisions, injuries and even a death, remains.

    Reply
  14. Tuvia etc.

    Alan: “Violent contexts” refers to the recent shooting – injuries and deaths caused by traffic collisions which are the result of bad planning and engineering as well as human behavior are also a type of violence.

    Reply
  15. Alan C. Miller

    #groan#

    Reply
  16. Tuvia etc

    Summary:
    “Accident”: Please see please see Darell Dickey’s explanation in this thread of why this is essentially a garbage term in this context. Note that both the Davis Enterprise and the Davis Police Department do not use this term in relation to traffic collisions.
    “Speed design” vs. “Speed limits (via signage)”: The first is about engineering determines the maximum speed at which most users feel comfortable – It actually serves as the basis for posted speed limits 25 mph or over, not the other way around. As I said in my first comment, it’s completely absurd that speed design is not mentioned directly – I making a small correction now to my first comments – in the primary pilot project section of the staff report for the Transportation Commission meeting this Monday about 5th Street – there IS a mention of traffic calming at the end in the “Future considerations”, but the only example given is driver feedback signs. Outside of restricting some left turn movements, the pilot does nothing to make it easier for people rolling, walking or cycling to cross 5th – The one enhanced crossing doesn’t work for people on bikes, because they can’t use the button.
    Reducing speed design on this corridor to 15 or 20 mph will enable nearly all users to react in time if anyone makes an inappropriate left turn movement. It takes almost twice as much distance to stop at 30 mph versus 20 mph:
    https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/learning-to-drive/stopping-distances/
    City of Davis engineering staff knows this.
    Importantly, the extra time it takes to travel the corridor at 20 mph versus 30 is less than 30 seconds.

    Reply
  17. Tuvia etc

    https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/05/03/what-traffic-violence-is-and-why-we-need-to-talk-about-it

    Reply
  18. South of Davis

    Tuvia wrote:

    engineering as well as human behavior are also a type of violence.
    Is engineering violence in the same way that “silence is violence”?
    Before you say OK Boomer I’m really trying to understand what people mean when they say engineering, silence or bad planning is “violence” (I grew up when actual “violence” was the only kind of violence)
    Would not buying a new Subaru that will stop itself be a kind of “bad planning violence”?

    Reply
  19. Ron O

    Regarding SOD’s (earlier) comment, it’s the last line of this bit that really “delivers”:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thHWvoYfNyo

    Reply
  20. Tuvia, etc

    I hope that it’s clear to people that if we refer to these incidents as “violence” instead of accidents, we will improve the situation more quickly!

    Reply
  21. Jay

    Update:
    I realized today that the city has a staff report with a recommendation posted on its website. The report recommends a pilot project to restrict I, J and K Street traffic approaching 5th Street to making right turns only (left turns and straight across movements prohibited). 5th Street traffic would still be allowed to turn left onto I, J and K. After evaluating the project they would then install a permanent fix.
    Staff says they can install the pilot project this spring, which I take literally to mean completion before June 20. I say give them a chance to try this, and urge them to move as quickly as possible.
    Pedestrian improvements such as flashing lights at the crosswalks could also be installed to enhance safety of non-motorized traffic. I guess lights can also be done quickly, but may need to follow after the other changes are made. Let’s not hold up one part of the safety project for the other.
    My guess is any speed limit below 25 mph is too low. If it’s lowered to 15 or 20, they’re going to need to ticket some of the faster e-bikes. If drivers just went 25 we’d be lucky. Sure speeding makes collisions more serious, but the real issue here is not the speed of traffic. I feel the issue is drivers not coming to complete stops as they approach 5th Street from J. You can sit at any stop sign in Davis and watch people drive thru at 5-10 mph. They slow down, but very few stop. For some reason, right now J street is the one that they can’t get away with not stopping. I don’t enter 5th at J nearly as frequently as those who live in the neighborhood, but I do occasionally, and have never felt there is anything unsafe about the intersection itself.

    Reply
  22. Tuvia etc

    SoB: Violence in this context varies in intensity. A head injury is worse than a fender bender. It’s everything that harms someone either through neglectful bad design… or willful lack of good design.
    By not referencing speed in the pilot project the city is orchestrating violence that will be performed by vehicle operators. And there’s absolutely no argument for “balance” here! It’s about taking 30 more seconds. The city is coddling little narcissistic babies.

    Reply
  23. Alan C. Miller

    TE: I said this was about what I consider an emergency at 5th & J and how to stop the collisions immediately. I asked that we not deviate from that topic. I said “#groan#” when you continued to talk about your issue, and you continue to talk about your issue. I could have simply not posted your posts, but I do not like to censor comments. But please respect my request. You are an author at the Davisite. Please use the material you wrote in your comments and compile a short article on the subject you have brought up and discuss it there. Thank you.

    Reply
  24. Alan C. Miller

    J say: “and have never felt there is anything unsafe about the intersection itself.”
    That is probably what all the people who proceeded and then were t-boned ‘felt’. That’s the problem. We’ve learned in crossing 5th the only safe way to cross is to stop twice. But to know how to pull this off you need experience (of almost being hit) and then figuring this out. I know of no other intersections like these three.
    J say: “I say give them a chance to try this, and urge them to move as quickly as possible.”
    We have, they are. Seen and heard about several collisions since. I’m asking for emergency/temporary measures to stop the collisions.
    J say: “Pedestrian improvements such as flashing lights at the crosswalks could also be installed to enhance safety of non-motorized traffic.”
    We already have ped flashing lights. IMO thos can give a false sense of security to pedestrians that assume the cars will stop — they often don’t. Similarly, you can post 5 mph and people will drive the same speed as they do today, and we don’t have enough cops to enforce one section of road all day, and cops don’t enforce minor infractions anymore anyway (another topic for another time).

    Reply
  25. Tuvia, etc

    Alan:: Perhaps two months ago at a City Council meeting you announced what’s essentially the same emergency, and the city engineer said he was working with your neighborhood association to produce what’s going to be on the agenda this Monday.
    So far the city has done nothing concrete. No huge number of police hours to look for what’s causing it. No controversial imperfect statements from Mayors. Zero
    Way more people have been injured here then were hurt in the park the other day. You’re calling something in an emergency that’s been totally normalized in the eyes of the majority.
    The city council does not have to approve this. The engineer could get it to happen on his own
    Why do you think that anything has changed? At the mentioned meeting, one of the city council members even asked the city engineer if extra money was needed to make anything happen. The engineer said it was not.
    There is real value to your work as a kind of ER doctor here, doing triage, but the hospital administrator has other priorities and the facility itself either doesn’t exist, except perhaps in the metaphorical basement of the mindset that simply doesn’t give a f*ck in automobile dependent Davis.

    Reply
  26. Alan C. Miller

    “Perhaps two months ago at a City Council meeting you announced what’s essentially the same emergency, and the city engineer said he was working with your neighborhood association to produce what’s going to be on the agenda this Monday.”
    True
    “So far the city has done nothing concrete. No huge number of police hours to look for what’s causing it. No controversial imperfect statements from Mayors. Zero Way more people have been injured here then were hurt in the park the other day. You’re calling something in an emergency that’s been totally normalized in the eyes of the majority.”
    Also true.
    “The city council does not have to approve this. The engineer could get it to happen on his own Why do you think that anything has changed?”
    I don’t know about who has the authority to do what when. I think it’s going through a ‘normal’ process pretty well. I don’t even live near the intersection, and I continue to see wrecked cars here and here about more from those that do live there. Things will change, I’m not trying to speed up the process, I’m trying to get recognition of how bad it is so we can stop the collisions until the currently-planned designs are implemented.
    “At the mentioned meeting, one of the city council members even asked the city engineer if extra money was needed to make anything happen. The engineer said it was not.”
    I believe that was for the ongoing current process.
    “There is real value to your work as a kind of ER doctor here, doing triage, but the hospital administrator has other priorities and the facility itself either doesn’t exist, except perhaps in the metaphorical basement of the mindset that simply doesn’t give a f*ck in automobile dependent Davis.”
    I’ve never seen anything like this as far as frequency of accidents. My intent is to wake up the City that this is bad, and something needs to be done NOW.
    Thanks for steering back to topic. The broader topic you brought up is valid and I hope to see an article and discussion on it in the future.

    Reply
  27. South of Davis

    Jay wrote:

    My guess is any speed limit below 25 mph is too low.
    If it’s lowered to 15 or 20, they’re going to need to ticket
    some of the faster e-bikes.
    I’m over 60 and usually ride over 15mph on my regular bike (over 20mph when I am in a hurry) and the young guys on their $5K+ carbon bikes are faster than me.
    Tuvia wrote:
    SoB: Violence in this context varies in intensity. A head injury is
    worse than a fender bender. It’s everything that harms someone
    either through neglectful bad design.
    I don’t want to tell anyone what to do but when almost everything (like bad design or falling off a skateboard is “violence” than the worn no longer has meaning (kind of like “racist” that is now everyone that does not have a Harris for President an BLM lawn sign and spendat least an hour a day being “anti-racist)…
    P.S. I think the “righ turn only” signs are a better idea than the cement barriers especially with more and more of the Indian guys on the roads (and sidewalks) in town on their unlicensed electric scooters (that Tuvia tells me are considered “electric bikes” since they have tiny pedals that are never used) weaving in and out of traffic and ignoring most traffic laws (yesterday I was making a left to head under the tracks to go “South of Davis” when one of them with an order from Mikuni almost ran into a bunch of pedestrians waiting for the walk light before blowing the light and almost got hit by a car)…

    Reply
  28. Alan C. Miller

    I received the following from the City today:
    Dear Alan,
    I talked with Ryan, and he is moving quickly toward a proposed solution for the 5th Street area you have mentioned. The solution only allows right turns from I, J or K Streets onto 5th Stret. Bikes and peds would still be able to cross the street.
    Ryan is bringing this solution to the Transportation Commission on Monday and to the Council in May. The initial improvements will be completed by using delineators and other low-cost, easy-to-install materials to further speed up the process. There is an option for a long-term project to follow.
    This is a big change, and the residents that live in the area will all be affected, so the City sent out a letter a few weeks ago to inform them of the proposal and the Transportation Commission meeting time. City staff also created a project webpage that the letter directed people to and this has also been shared with Old East Davis Neighborhood Association at:
    https://www.cityofdavis.org/city-hall/public-works-engineering-and-transportation/transportation/5th-street-safety-improvements-between-i-street-and-k-street
    City staff is working as quickly as possible to get this project done. Designing, bidding and mobilizing a contractor to do k-rail would take time too (providing the necessary rails) were available.
    Thank you again for sharing your expertise in this area.
    Best regards,
    Barbara (Archer)

    Reply
  29. Tuvia, etc.

    Responding to the letter:
    * Mostly neighborhood residents are inconvenienced by having to choose different routes. They receive direct communication;
    * Mostly people from outside the neighborhood get to travel faster. Most will never hear anything about this, Unless they drive onto the neighborhood streets and try to leave the same way;
    * People on bikes will not be able to follow a left turning vehicle, which some may do to protect them from vehicles coming down fifth. Therefore, they will be less safe.
    * Average speed on 5th Street may increase, making all people on bikes or crossing the street less safe.
    * If the majority of problems are happening on 5th and J. perhaps it’s good to add stuff only there and then add some things along the entire route to slow it down rather than adding to the other two Intersections.

    Reply
  30. Alan C. Miller

    In regard to City email to me:
    “City staff is working as quickly as possible to get this project done.”
    No complaints on the regular project.
    “Designing, bidding and mobilizing a contractor to do k-rail would take time too (providing the necessary rails) were available.”
    I realize that may be true. With the continuing rash of oft-serious accidents at this intersection, I was hoping this could be recognized as a ridiculous situation and declared an ’emergency’ or a ‘crisis’ (to use the DG/DV and D-CAN terms for housing and climate). And in that context it could be treated like a water-main break or a severing of the PG&E gas main, and traffic-diversion signs, devices and barriers could be moved into place from the City yard, to reduce or prevent accidents until the project is completed.
    That was my hope.
    “Thank you again for sharing your expertise in this area.”
    Expertise . . . I am transportation planner, but I am not a road engineer. Mainly I’m a citizen somewhat nearby who is horrified by the continuing string of accidents.

    Reply
  31. Alan C. Miller

    TE say: “Mostly people from outside the neighborhood get to travel faster.”
    What are you talking about? Are you saying the project the City is working on will increase the speed on 5th? From what are you deriving that conclusion?
    TE say: “People on bikes will not be able to follow a left turning vehicle, which some may do to protect them from vehicles coming down fifth. Therefore, they will be less safe.”
    If you mean left turning off 5th, they can use the next block, or cross like a pedestrian, and I don’t believe that many do this or that there is any evidence this makes things ‘less safe’. There was a bike/car collision last week. I don’t know the details yet and therefore if the intersection as-is was contributing, but clearly things aren’t ‘safe’ now.
    TE say: “Average speed on 5th Street may increase, making all people on bikes or crossing the street less safe.”
    Again, what orifice are you pulling this assertion of increased speed out of?
    TE say: “If the majority of problems are happening on 5th and J. perhaps it’s good to add stuff only there and then add some things along the entire route to slow it down rather than adding to the other two Intersections.”
    I think the entire neighborhood would like have a way to stop speeding on 5th. Also true of 3rd, a hundreds of other streets throughout Davis. Enforcement requires cops — which we don’t have and abundance of and probably never will — and since Covid-19/George-Floyd the cops don’t pull people over for minor infractions anymore, which apparently includes speeding below reckless-driving speeds. You can’t put speed bumps on an arterial, a round-about was considered but won’t fit, and signs do little to slow people down. So what design do you suggest? The rotating knives? (Monty Python reference)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZIVr6jX_to
    As for ‘only doing stuff at 5th and J’, the neighborhood and the City had extensive discussions about the design, and everyone I believe agreed that people using J Street would just cut over to I Street and K Street which have similar sight-line-obstruction issues.

    Reply
  32. Don Shor

    Multiple emergency vehicles down there right now (Sun. p.m).
    Call Type: Fire And Medical
    Location: 5TH ST/J ST
    Date of Call: 4/20/2025
    Time of Call: 15:39:36
    This intersection is an increasingly urgent situation.

    Reply
  33. Tuvia, etc

    Alan:
    * The proposed eliminated left turn movements – when not actually physically blocking a a vehicle headed east or west on 5th – still tend to attenuate the speed of following vehicles, depending in part and how long the vehicles take to get to the prevailing speed.
    * When a motor vehicle makes a left turn, a person on a bike can get an assist by turning with them, staying to the right or to the right and just behind the vehicle. Essentially the vehicle is acting like a defensive tackle for the person on a bike who is the quarterback etc. in the context of this corridor, these movements are made from the side streets onto 5th.
    * Enforcement is patchy and expensive, speed limit signs do little. I am not suggesting either.
    * Speed bumps or humps are not strictly not permitted here: the MUTCD is guidance, not regulations. A solution could be a subtly elevated crossing at least on one side of every cross street.
    * Probably the best solution would be physical barriers in the existing paint buffered bike lanes, but on the traffic lane edge. Possibly also flex the posts in the center divider. This doesn’t have to be a complicated concrete installation, operation with molds etc. it can just be prefabricated concrete sections, similar to what’s in a parking lot and it doesn’t have to be continuous, only regular.
    * Crosswalks are for rolling and walking, not for cycling.
    * I am fine with withdrawing my suggestion of a focus just on J, but it’s not entirely predictable what their new patterns will be created by this limited restriction. And in the medium to long-term, I think something that slows the entire corridor in a concrete way Is a better solution for multiple reasons, including trips by foot or bicycle across 5th.
    * A street as a wall is primitive engineering, the result of a lack of imagination.
    * I really wish you would stop using the term “accident”. Darell spoke to this at the beginning of the thread: The city, the police and the Davis Enterprise do not use this term.
    * The limited outreach here makes no sense. Lots of people from outside the neighborhood use this corridor – I’ve seen nothing on social media about the meeting this Monday.

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  34. Alan C. Miller

    TE say: “The proposed eliminated left turn movements – when not actually physically blocking a a vehicle headed east or west on 5th – still tend to attenuate the speed of following vehicles, depending in part and how long the vehicles take to get to the prevailing speed.”
    Not all left turns are being eliminated. And I doubt what you say applies to 5th.
    TE say: “When a motor vehicle makes a left turn, a person on a bike can get an assist by turning with them, staying to the right or to the right and just behind the vehicle. Essentially the vehicle is acting like a defensive tackle for the person on a bike who is the quarterback etc. in the context of this corridor, these movements are made from the side streets onto 5th.”
    I’ve done that, but only where it is available. Like I said, you’ll be able to do this at the next street. But why are you making this argument? Are you saying that things should stay as they are because some small percentage of bicycles won’t be able to do this at every block in every direction anymore? I don’t understand the overall point.
    TE say: “Enforcement is patchy and expensive, speed limit signs do little. I am not suggesting either. Speed bumps or humps are not strictly not permitted here: the MUTCD is guidance, not regulations. A solution could be a subtly elevated crossing at least on one side of every cross street.”
    I don’t think you’re going to get such a thing on an artery, and I don’t think subtle will do a thing.
    TE say: “Probably the best solution would be physical barriers in the existing paint buffered bike lanes, but on the traffic lane edge. Possibly also flex the posts in the center divider. This doesn’t have to be a complicated concrete installation, operation with molds etc. it can just be prefabricated concrete sections, similar to what’s in a parking lot and it doesn’t have to be continuous, only regular.”
    Those are good ideas. Everywhere. All over town.
    TE say: “A street as a wall is primitive engineering, the result of a lack of imagination.”
    Probably true.

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