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Al’s Curiosity Corner #2 – Open Forum on the Library Issue

While there has been a discussion on that 'other' blog, the reason I hang here is that many comments get deleted there without explanation, especially on this issue and especially comments even modestly politically right.  However, this is a sensitive issue, and I am not going to allow outright insults directed at trans people/supporters/protestors nor at persons associated with Mom's for Liberty. 

For example, for some reason that other blog allows MFL persons to be called Nazis, and that sort of useless comment isn't going to be allowed here.  On the other hand, in the Yahoo comments on the Bee article, about 153 out of 155 comments were against the library actions, despite the article leaning towards supporting the protestors.  AND . . . many if not most of those commenting there were denying the existence of trans people, insulting trans people, and/or calling trans people various derogatory terms implying mental illness just for being trans.  I'm not putting up with any of that shit here either.  I won't outright delete a comment unless it's completely empty of anything but outright hate towards either side, and I'll always explain why a comment or part of a comment was deleted.

My views on the library matter are simple:  I'm a Jew who believes the Skokie decision was the greatest triumph for the core of what makes America great:  Free speech, baby!

What are your views?   I'd like this to focus on free speech vs. hate speech; the actions/authority of the library/library-manager, the actions of those putting on the meeting and those protesting the meeting, and various takes in the media.

(Note:  I have a life, so your comments may not be posted for many hours.  Deal with it.)

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Alan C. Miller

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Comments

64 responses to “Al’s Curiosity Corner #2 – Open Forum on the Library Issue”

  1. Matt Williams

    Alan Miller said … “Because it is tearing the country apart more than any issue since abortion.”
    Alan, you can’t be serious! Do you really believe that the same volume of people personally care about who gets to participate in competitive high school sports as care about abortion? If you do believe that, what are your sources of data that bring you to that conclusion. Who gets to participate in high school sports is a fringe issue.
    Alan Miller said …”I think what you are really saying is “Beth you should shut up because I disagree with you and you are wrong”
    You need to brush up on your reading skills Alan. My response to Beth laid out for clear steps that I believe will make her communication on this issue much MORE effective. I’m not sure how helping someone communicate more effectively can be interpretted as telling her to shut up.
    Alan Miller said … ” I see no logic in your contention that few or no people involved in Davis makes it something people do not need to care about. Clearly people care about it. ”
    Here again your reading skills need some brushing up. Nowhere in what I said to Beth did I say or even imply that people shouldn’t care about this issue. I suggested that she would connect more effectively (the outcome she specifically asked for input on) if she constructed her arguments in WIFM terms … answering their fundamental time management question “Why should I care?”
    With the above said, thank you for your feedback. You still haven’t answered the question I asked you, “Regarding “speaks hatefully at Catholics and Jews and Blacks” do you not consider “calling a trans gender woman a man” hate speech?” It’s a pretty simple question.

    Reply
  2. Matt Williams

    Ron Oertel said … “Something’s wrong when a Supreme Court justice can’t tell you what a woman is. (Or, I presume – a man.)”
    Ron, how many genes reside on an X chromosome? How many on a Y chromosome? Once you have those two numbers in hand, what are the number of unique combinations of genes that can exist on either of those chromosomes?
    When we didn’t know any better, we allowed ourselves the delusion that the spectrum from man to woman was binary. Thanks to advances in science we now know that that spectrum is a continuum of a near-infinite range of possibilities that make the black and white concept of man and woman a near kinvinite recitation of the shades of grey that exist between black on one end and white on the other.

    Reply
  3. Alan C. Miller

    MW say: ” You still haven’t answered the question I asked you, ”
    I responded, I did not answer. No one says in discussions that one needs to answer a question demanded to be answered by another. Here again is my response:
    ACM said already: “I’m not stepping in your trap. The issue I am speaking of is free speech, i.e. what is considered to be hate speech by one group can lawfully be expressed by another, however vile it is perceived by another. And the “another” also may protest and explain their reason to oppose the first group. Those groups who wish to argue about what “is” hate speech can argue about it until long past my time upon this Earth. They will never agree.”

    Reply
  4. Alan C. Miller

    ” Who gets to participate in high school sports is a fringe issue. ”
    Sure gets the ‘fringes’ riled up.
    As for data, doesn’t matter anymore. We live in a world where people throw conflicting data at each other and are sure they are right.
    I brushed on my reading skills. No change.

    Reply
  5. Alan C. Miller

    BTW, MW. You don’t have to ‘answer’ my questions either. If I asked any. Usually in discussions people use questions either to make a point, or to attempt to trap their foe. Beware my trap, foe.
    If I asked any.

    Reply
  6. Matt Williams

    Alan, that is an answer worthy of a politician. A whole lot of words saying nothing.
    You reveal nothing of your personal morality, which of course is your right to do.
    BTW, nothing was demanded of you. A question was simply laid out there at your doorstep. You chose to step over it. You also said that no words, no ideas, absolutely is out of bounds. Did I get that right?

    Reply
  7. Matt Williams

    Alan Miller said … “Sure gets the ‘fringes’ riled up.”
    You summed up our societal conundrum beautifully. It appears that you would have us all chasing our tails.
    When it comes to fringes I’m partial to the old saying, “If necklines get any lower and hemlines get any higher, women will have two sets of cheeks to powder and two hairdos to comb.” An I’m not charging you a penny for that bon mot of speech … you get it for free.

    Reply
  8. Ron O

    “When we didn’t know any better, we allowed ourselves the delusion that the spectrum from man to woman was binary. Thanks to advances in science we now know that that spectrum is a continuum of a near-infinite range of possibilities that make the black and white concept of man and woman a near kinvinite recitation of the shades of grey that exist between black on one end and white on the other.”
    Here’s what I’d suggest, as an example that Matt Walsh provided.
    If a doctor “assigned” you as male at birth, do you think they’d run tests on you (or give you fertility treatments) to determine the reason you can’t get pregnant?
    On the other hand, if you were “assigned” female at birth (and couldn’t get pregnant), do you suppose that a doctor would try to determine the cause in the hope of treating it?
    Taking this further, do you suppose a doctor would provide medication for erectile dysfunction, for someone “assigned” female at birth? Alternatively, would they qualify for a vasectomy?
    Who exactly is engaging in “delusion”, here?

    Reply
  9. Keith

    “I brushed on my reading skills. No change.”
    Hilarious. That comment wins the Internet for today.

    Reply
  10. Alan C. Miller

    MW say: “Alan, that is an answer worthy of a politician. A whole lot of words saying nothing.”
    MW, your questions are worthy of a lawyer, or a conservative talk show host like Rush Limbaugh (RIP). My words were my response, and quite clear if you care to listen. What I said was nothing in regard to the question you asked me, not nothing.
    “You reveal nothing of your personal morality, which of course is your right to do.”
    Correct.
    “BTW, nothing was demanded of you.”
    Correct. Even though you repeated the question saying I hadn’t answer it. Which is a bit demanding, or at least rude.
    “A question was simply laid out there at your doorstep.”
    Which I welcomed about as much as a burning bag of dog poop on my doorstep.
    “You chose to step over it.”
    Actually I put it out with a garden hose.
    “You also said that no words, no ideas, absolutely is out of bounds. Did I get that right?”
    Well, MW, as you know we’re way beyond the ‘yelling fire in a crowded building’ thing when it comes to the first amendment. The nice wife of a man who walked the halls of King Hall and had colleagues over for drinks told us so. Or something like that.
    Alan Miller said … “Sure gets the ‘fringes’ riled up.”
    MW say: “You summed up our societal conundrum beautifully.”
    Thank you.
    “It appears that you would have us all chasing our tails.”
    Huh ? I’m not ‘having’ anyone do anything.
    When it comes to fringes I’m partial to the old saying, “If necklines get any lower and hemlines get any higher, women will have two sets of cheeks to powder and two hairdos to comb.”
    And I’m sure we can agree on one thing: that applies to all who identify as women.
    “An I’m not charging you a penny for that bon mot of speech … you get it for free.”
    Even though it was free, I hope it’s still returnable for what I paid for it.

    Reply
  11. Matt Williams

    What I said was nothing in regard to the question you asked me, not nothing.
    On that we are in agreement
    Which I welcomed about as much as a burning bag of dog poop on my doorstep.
    Again we are in agreement, both to the words and your mindset.
    Actually I put it out with a garden hose.
    You forgot to include the name of your garden hose … Peter
    Even though it was free, I hope it’s still returnable for what I paid for it.
    Absolutely

    Reply
  12. Alan C. Miller

    ACM: “Which I welcomed about as much as a burning bag of dog poop on my doorstep.”
    MW reply: “Again we are in agreement, both to the words and your mindset.”
    I don’t think either one of us has much respect for the other’s ‘mindset’ on this issue, or issues, as we seem to be arguing different points.
    ACM: “Actually I put it out with a garden hose.”
    MW reply: “You forgot to include the name of your garden hose … Peter”
    Peter? — is that a penis reference ? Are you implying I pissed on the metaphorical parallelism bag of dog crap that didn’t exist ?
    ACM: “Even though it was free, I hope it’s still returnable for what I paid for it.”
    MW reply: “Absolutely”
    I already had Peter take it to the dump.

    Reply
  13. Keith

    Matt Williams:
    “You forgot to include the name of your garden hose … Peter”
    OMG, really?

    Reply
  14. Alan C. Miller

    KO: “OMG, really?”
    Apparently really. In a discussion that includes gender identity, MW implies my garden hose is my penis and it is named Peter.
    Or perhaps I misunderstood ?
    PS. My penis is named Steve

    Reply

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